Buildings
and Facilities Task Force
Monday, February 3, 2025 - 9:00 am
Steve McNally - Chairman
Chairman McNally called this task force to
order at 9:00 am with the following in attendance: Chris Clark, Robin DeLoria, Shaun
Gillilland, Steve McNally, Jim Monty, Favor Smith, Matt Stanley, Davina
Thurston, Meg Wood, Mark Wright, Mike Mascarenas and Jim Dougan. Ike Tyler had
been previously excused
Also present: Dina Garvey, Todd Hodgson,
Andrew Stanley, Hugh Harwood, Nate Jones, Nancy Page, Bill Johnston and
Elizabeth Lee.
MCNALLY: So, while Todd is getting set
up, I’ll try and do a quick update on somethings.
The Old Jail, outback, we don’t like the
way it looks, so we’re going to start putting it back together, brick by brick.
They are in the process of trying to truck somethings out, this week, today, to
get a little more room, but then we should be done with the first floor,
tomorrow or the next day, all the way down to grade and then they’ll start
working on moving the foundation. It’s in that contract for them to remove the
complete foundation and then backfill the site with sand, basically. So, they
told us, they should be complete by the end of February, at the latest. So,
moving pretty good there. We are going to try and save a number of bricks, if
we can to maybe, once this is all done and as one of the projects was upgrading
the signage, the directory signage, out front, maybe we can do something with
some of those bricks and we’ll make a little bit of a monument with the year it
was built and the year it came down kind of thing. We’re going to try and save
a few of those, so we have them as potential.
Ag and Youth Building; we have the
contracts, bonds and insurance from three of four of the contractors, we have
the bonds and insurance, but not the contract, they were waiting for somebody
to get back from vacation to sign it, but we are starting to get submittals
from those contractors. We’ve advertised for our construction inspector to have
somebody there. We’re going to work with 4H in the next couple of weeks and try
and get a couple of buildings cleaned out that we’ve got to relocate. We
started moving some files in the old former Cornell Buildings, because we’re
going to have that construction inspector, sit in one of those offices. We are,
late this month, we’ll take down the one tree next to the 4H barn and we’ve got
a fuel tank on site now. We’ve got to remove the one that’s in the ground, next
to the Cornell Building, we’re trying to get as late in the season as we can,
through heating season. Moving forward, we expect the contractors onsite in
March.
LEE: Jim, can I just ask a question?
DOUGAN: Sure
LEE: Are you still on track for
November?
DOUGAN: That is still what the contract
says, yup. Still what the contract says.
LEE: So, ballpark, move in after the
first of the year? Any idea when it will be move in ready?
DOUGAN: That is what I would assume,
yeah. I expect that…
LEE: I just don’t know how to guess how
much time after the contract is closed.
DOUGAN: I don’t think we’re going to
kick you out of your existing building on December 1st. So, we’ll
work with you on that.
LEE: No, it’s really just a planning
thing. I don’t need a hard answer.
DOUGAN: Yup, we can work on that as we
go.
Frontier Town; a resolution to go out to
bid for that first phase will hopefully be passed today. if it does, then we
have our technical specs, just about done. Andrew and I, got to put our
finishing touches on it and then we plan to get that two the Purchasing
Department before the end of this week.
So, now getting close to what Todd, is
going to present. Todd, Hugh, Nate, they’re all going to present. In the 2025
Budget, we have a couple of good sized projects that we pulled out of the
budget and you guys set up that capital reserve for building projects and you
also moved money that was leftover from the sale of the Kurtz
Building/Stewarts. So, to pull money out of that, officially do that work in
this year, I have to bring a resolution. I plan to bring some resolutions at
DPW Committee, later this month. Specially for the Kurtz building, one of the
projects was to start to remodel the first floor of that building. we had
$75,000.00 in that and then we were going to also, we’re going to keep the
existing boiler, but we’re going to add mini-split, air conditioning units with
heat backup, that was another $8,500.00 and then, also on the second floor,
we’re going to do the demolition and make that available, as wide open a space
that we can. We’re going to get rid of all the non-structural walls and then
with the old jail coming down, we sat aside $50,000.00 for exterior
improvements. I think I’ll spend a portion of that on making the rear of the
building handicapped assessable and the front of the building has steps. There
were doors to the back of that building, before the addition was built between
the old jail and the former sheriff’s residents, the former probation, so we’ll
make the backside of the building handicapped assessable, as we get ready. So,
I will be bringing that resolution, specifically move that into those projects
for 2025.
We also had about $550,000.00 in our
original budget request for 2025 for some of the improvements at the Public
Safety Building that we talked about. It started out with a heating system
upgrades, trying to replace a rooftop unit that was we found we would have to
replace the whole control system. So,
Todd is going to, Todd is going to give you an update, Nate will probably jump
in, Hugh will probably jump in, on the things they’re working on. Probably
won’t be bringing that resolution, I may bring the resolution to move that
money, at DPW Committee, but they’ve got a few more, they’ve got to detail what
we can actually get done. Somethings have changed in the investigations that
they have found. So, I don’t want to steal their thunder, but they haven’t
changed, somethings have changed for the good and other things have changed for
the bad. So, Todd, don’t scare them.
HODGSON: Just as a reminder, this is
where we last left off with a discussion of the budget on the Public Safety
Building. Some pretty significant capital improvement costs on the total cost
on the right. The main ones being the ventilation system design, that are kind
of in front of still. That was late in 2024 that we came to the Board on that
one and then the boiler replacement and design which is about $3.4 million,
$3.4 million for the HVAC and then the boiler being at about a million dollars.
We have a couple of projects that were a
little bit unknown at that time. The roof, which is still kind of unknown, it’s
just a placeholder there for the anticipated costs for replacement, because we’re
doing rooftops, doing the roof in conjunction, makes sense and the life
expectancy of that roof. The electrical switch gear, which we took just a quick
estimate. We knew there were issues there, we didn’t know how much money we
might spend and then the sewage treatment, are just placeholders on this
budget, because we know those things are coming on that building.
MASCARENAS: Todd, you have the year on
the side, did those things actually get complete? So, money already spent
versus money?
HODGSON: We didn’t get approval on the
$267,000.00, so we didn’t move forward on that, sneakily, we did. So, like we,
despite the fact that maybe we were carved down in some of the funds that we
cannot not do anything. So, we did execute somethings. So, I am going to jump
into that.
MASCARENAS: Okay, I just want the Board
to understand what’s been spent versus.
HODGSON: We did complete a study and
that’s that $20,000.00. So, we did some engineering work kind of in the
background to understand a little bit better some of the problems that we had
and because we couldn’t move to the next step we took and did a smaller project
to take care of a key problem. So, this was the problem that we talked about or
one of them anyway. We did two boilers running and sometimes at 50%, sometimes
at 40% to take the load of the building, when one boiler should have been
running and that has to do with the short cycling of the heating system. In
other words, if you’re short cycling back and forth, up and down like this, you
can’t run just one boiler, you have to have a heat load of a significant larger
BTU, in order the stomach those fluctuations in the heat load. This is what
cracked our exchangers. That is why we repeatedly went through exchanger after
exchanger, at $43,000.00 each. That is a significant cost to our operations budget and that’s what Hugh
and myself, particularly, couldn’t leave alone. We could not allow that to be
the case. We also had some issues with the hot water heaters for the domestic
hot water and we said, okay, let’s figure out what we can do. We went through,
we have two 1.5 million BTU domestic hot water heaters. That’s huge. Most of
your heating systems in your house might be somewhere between 300,000, maybe
400,000 BTU. We’re talking about hot water heaters, only two of them at 1.5
million. We took those on and we repurposed them. They’re no longer hot water
heaters. They are a hot water storage. So, we store all our hot water, now, in
two 1,500 gallon tanks. So, that we have a thermal mass to eliminate that short
cycling and we replaced the hot water heaters.
DOUGAN: They’re hooked to the boiler is
what he’s telling you.
HARWOOD: They’re on a hydronic system
and we move them from the domestic system. So, those two 1,500 tanks, actually
only serviced 40 showers in the jail.
HODGSON: We replaced those with three
small hot water heaters that satisfy that requirement. Repurposing those hot
water heaters to use for that thermal mass. That has made a huge effect. If you
look at the graphs here, you can’t see, maybe all the detailing in it, but now
it literally flat lines. In fact it looks like it has a little bit of a wiggle,
but what you don’t see is that, that’s like, those are 1°incriments. So, no
longer are we fluctuating, you know 100°, we’re fluctuating, maybe 4°-5° on
that system. So, we’re eliminating that culprit for cracking those heat
exchangers that have plagued us, so much. I’m not saying that we’re out of the
woods, because, how many of the exchangers that are there have been subject to
the cycling?
HARWOOD: So, there’s three boilers
there, currently. One boiler’s heat exchanger has been on the out system for 5
years. So, it was about 5-7 years we usually replace a heat exchanger. We’ve
replaced 7 so far.
DOUGAN: 17 years.
HARWOOD: 17-20 years, since it’s been online,
so one’s 5 years old and the other one is two years. So, that one’s that 5, is
the one I want to asterisk, I don’t know the real the condition of it, but
moving forward, those heat exchangers will be able to be more effective.
HODGSON: So, just as a frame of
reference.
DOUGAN: We have a question, first, Todd.
MONTY: Can you estimate the energy
savings on this, Todd?
HODGSON: Because it just happened, like
we don’t know exactly, we’re measuring that. Rather than even come out with an
estimate, but put it this way, we’re running at coldest day, we were running at
80% on one versus 50% on two. So, that at a minimum.
MONTY: Is going to be a substantial
savings.
HODGSON: Is going to more savings.
HARWOOD: Yeah, currently, right now, we
still have to get numbers at the end of the year, but it looks like we actually
using less propane, as well.
MONTY: I am quite sure, quite sure.
HARWOOD: We’re only basing that off the
delivery, but it’s a pretty good year to base that off, so we’re going to look
back.
HODGSON: So, we had the energy savings,
we had the savings of replacing the exchanger. So, let’s get to roughly what
the capital cost was to do that. I think we spent a little over $83,000.00 to
do that.
MONTY: Long range you’re going to save
that.
HODGSON: Yeah, so trying to buy down
some of that capital costs from where we were. We’ve already accomplished a
piece of that. So, we still have some of that, going back to that line item in
your question, we still have that, that’s actually one of the things that we’re
looking to get approved, today or at least some direction on today. If we could
that money moved over for that, so we can keep going.
DOUGAN: So, one of the items in his
first slide with budget did list the electrical switch gear. You guys have all
know for years, we’ve done a lot of work there. We still seem to phase power
where we have power outage at the jail, itself, but admin is on other
situations where it goes vice versa. So, Todd, is giving you a little bit of a
history here, of some of the work that’s been done regarding that issue, but a
little bit farther in, they’re going to get into what we’ve really finally
figured out through Todd and through Nate, who is, I don’t know if everybody’s
met Nate or not, but Nate’s been with us for a few months now, he’s going to
Clarkson, right now to get his Master’s in electrical engineering and working
with us as an Assistant Project Manager. So, with that person coming on staff,
we’ve devoted a little bit more time into investing this. We’ve been tied to
vendors for years who have never told us the issue, but sold us other services,
I guess is a nice way to say it. So, Todd gave you the good news first and now
he’s going to give you the not so good news, but it’s good that we’re finally
identifying it.
HODGSON: So, don’t forget about the
budget requests or budget transfer for the existing, I just want to underline
that.
DOUGAN: Yeah, we’ve got to detail out
for you guys a little bit of what we can accomplish this next year. That’s what
Todd and Hugh are going to do for me. We’re still trying, like he said, he’s
still trying to get the numbers on what we’ve saved and Mike has been on me,
for the last few years, about don’t request more than you guys can accomplish
and I have so much faith in these guys that I sometimes over project what we
can accomplish. So, I’ve asked them to detail out what we can accomplish,
specifically with the HVAC system, so that even though we set up a capital
reserve, I don’t need to pull too much, because as we continue to investigate,
we may come across other things that are simple solutions, like what they did
in that boiler room and we may come across things that are as scary, as close
to immediate failure as we are with this transfer scheme with the electrical. Sorry,
I’m taking your thunder.
DOUGAN: That’s okay, this has a little
bit of a sorted history, which is outlined here. There has been various
coordination studies, there’s been various outfits that have been hired, both
engineering and manufactures to come in and look at this problem and I’ll
summarize it and say this, that none of them actually really understood this
problem and I am now beginning just to understand what actually has caused the
problem that still persists to this day, not as frequently, as it used to be,
but why the jail ends up in the dark? Why you can’t transfer power and you have
a perfectly legitimate source, kind of, a generator and no lights on in the
jail and that’s a very awkward place to be.
You know, having been there myself with our maintenance staff, standing
in the jail, in the dark, trying to get things to transfer while, you know,
they had to lock up the inmates, because you can’t schedule this, it just
happens and so they’re trying to scurry people into the cells and get it
everything locked down, operate everything that’s supposed to function with all
the electronic switches and gates and so forth that are now manual and I’ll go
back to Jim’s opening line, we’re putting back the old jail, brick by brick, I
think, for the mechanisms that don’t require all that electricity, back to just
keys. You know we have a complex system there and no power is a huge deal,
especially even for like the 911 dispatch and EOC.
So, we began, since Nate, came on board,
I said, hey, here’s project number one, let’s look at this, and Nate has gone
through and done a lot of power monitoring. I will bring up that he’s done some
power monitoring on this corridor, down through here, both this building,
Public Safety Building, because of a failure actually, at your water plant and
there is a problem with the source and I’m going to just leave that for a
second.
The primary goals that we were looking
at is, we have power outages, we had a hunch we had some power quality issues,
we have a huge electrical safety issue there. The switch gear, because
manufactures come in and they have not actually coordinated the sequence of
breakers when they open and close, so there’s time periods when have both the
generator and the source with closed transitions between the two. That means
that the syncing of that has to be perfect,
if it’s not, you could begin to atomize copper creating a highly ionized
atmosphere that creates an Arc Flash condition that would disintegrate anybody
that’s there trying to flip the switch, to put that into context. It’s a very
serious, very serious, issue. Google, Arc Flash, sometime and take a look at
it. High potential, higher than actually any suit that we have capable of
working.
This is a little bit of what we found,
the top graphic is a graphic of what 3-phase power should look like, 3-phase
power should have 1, 2, 3 phases in a nice sinusoidal wave. That’s what we have
down at the bottom, that bottom graph is a lot of harmonic distortion and Nate
can go into much more detail, but I will try to get through this a little bit
myself. You see, also the black line, that is supposed to be your neutral.
Neutral is like zero amperage, typically and we have distortion harmonic
amperage on the neutral. That’s really bad. It will fry computer gear, in fact,
actually, I am touching base with IT. We found, actually, they’ve been going
through some equipment up there and this would be one of the reasons why.
MCNALLY: Is this caused by the source?
Is this source driven, that NYSEG is not supplying properly?
HODGSON: So, that is, there’s two pieces
to this. We are not finished yet. We just ran, two weeks ago, a pretty
extensive generator test. I am putting sure that we upset most of the people in
the building, shutting the lights on and off, but we found that we have a
significant amount of harmonic distortion from the UPS, the uninterruptable
power supply that powers up the EOC and 911 Dispatch Center. It’s a very large,
what was 130KBA.
JONES: It’s a 230KBA
HODGSON: So, that’s a big UPS, it does
not have a filter back in the time it got put in, about 200, they did not have
the harmonic filters that they have today. So, some of the noise comes back
from that, but, because the source is a soft source, creating the issues
actually that you have, that this building has, all along this corridor, that
soft source cannot absorb the harmonic distortion and so it reflects back and
forth, kind of like a wave pool and periodically, reaches a crescendo, enough
that it begins to fry gear. Nate, when
he was opening up one of the cabinets, actually across the bar, you can see
actual Arc Flash burn marks on the bar. So, it’s not like it hasn’t happened.
It just hasn’t blown up, that’s all. So, that is a significant issue that this
facility has lived with for some time that’s caused by both the soft source and
some internal harmonics to the building.
Somebody did not research correctly,
when they did the design for this building, to evaluate whether or not the
source and the components that went into the building were even the right mesh
to have what’s called a, closer transferred scheme, which is the very
complicated switch gear that we do have. So, we’re still in the process and I’m
sorry to get this on the table, but it has a little bit to do with the request
that we have and the degree of urgency that we have and at least beginning to
think about this problem. We looked at things strategically in such a way that
we can save some money, but we have a little bit of investigation to do, as
well.
STANLEY: That graph on the bottom, was
that produced by the power monitoring tool that we purchased?
HODGSON: Yes, it was. In fact, power
issues, I mean they’re everywhere, but it’s evaluating how critical that is,
and I would say that is a difficultly for the North Country, especially as like
EVs are coming in and so like EV charging stations, the one that we have out
here or others that get developed in the community, because the grid is
struggling to provide that power, some of this is going to begin to build. One
of the rests why we have less trouble now, at the jail, is because the quarry,
shutdown just up the road, so the power draw isn’t as much, but through time,
we’re going to reach back to where we started from, as EVs and other electrical
demands are put on the system and that may affect your communities and your
infrastructure, as well, your water, your sewer, you guys have PLCs there.
Those programmable Logic Controllers, that control the water or sewer system
can get their brains scrambled by that squiggly line that you see. Those
systems can only react in like the second or maybe sub-second category. The
frequency of the distortion is like, you know, 1/100th of a second,
so it can go right though a lot of the
protected devices that you guys have on your systems that keep that brain from
being scrambled.
STANLEY: I feel like a lot of people
think, okay, I have an outlet, there’s power. It’s like, if I checks, I must
have money in my checking account. You know, people don’t realize behind the scenes
how the power actually works, how it’s distributed and how it’s maintained and
we just say, there’s an empty outlet, let’s put something more in it or if not,
let’s put a surge protector on it and add 6 more things.
HODGSON: Yes
MCNALLY: Have we had a sit down with
NYSEG and have them explain to us where
the issue is?
DOUGAN: It will be a failure to meet
with them, right now. I don’t have enough bullets in my gun, give me the
bullets, that’s what he’s going to ask you on, but he’s got two different
things when you get down to the bottom here. There’s one that I would us to
focus, you guys make that decisions, but there’s one I would like to focus on,
because it’s under our control and it will deal with that safety issue and it
will keep lights on, at least put it under our control and then the next one,
is going to cost more money, if we want to actually have the bullets to go back
at NYSEG, which probably should do, long term, but.
HODGSON: So, I am going to jump back out
of the rabbit hole for just a just a second and talk about heating systems,
real quickly.
MONTY: This isn’t a problem that just
cropped up, because you’ve been dealing with NYSEG on that switch down there
for many years, at least for as long as I’ve been on the Board, this is my 10th
year and this is something that’s been.
DOUGAN: This has been going on since
long before.
MONTY: I am glad to see the study, here,
done to prove that. I’m worried about the safety of somebody getting killed
down there.
MCNALLY: Or a fire and the doors not
opening. But, I think we need to continue with this study.
MONTY: Oh, absolutely, there’s no doubt.
HODGSON: So, and again, I do want to
emphasize it actually does affect all of us, you know, that’s why there’s a,
well put, just because there’s an outlet, don’t think you can just start
plugging things into it, because that’s kind of almost what has happened up
here in the North Country, without having upgrades to the system to carry that
power.
DOUGAN: So, there’s two priority tracks
for us, right now. I don’t want to derail the HVAC system, the heating system;
okay? That is what originally got us to this point; right? So, I need to keep,
in one track, I need to keep that kind of moving forward and then the other
one, even though we identified that there was this ongoing issue, Todd, brought
up with the electrical system, Todd brought up that because the quarry
shutdown, it seemed like the electrical system was in better shape.
MONTY: But, they just put a 6-unit EV
station at the truck stop that finally hit the, you know, EV Station App that
they have. So, I’ve seen more and more vehicles there. I mean it went a month
without any and then there was one or two and the other night I came by and
five of the six were people charging.
GILLILLAND: Okay, so, if regulatory
agencies, PESH or OSHA found out about the conditions like this, would they
shut it down?
HODGSON: Yeah
GILLILLAND: Pretty clear what we need to
do.
DOUGAN: Yeah, our primary thing and Nate
and Todd can get into it, is talking about the switch itself. The transfer
switch, the transfer switch, in layman’s terms and these guys are going to give
it to you in a lot more detail, is overly complicated. It was installed, it was
a switch that was installed that was meant to accept clean, clean power coming
into it, one, plus, it’s controlled by two different PLCs, it’s two different
computers. It’s not just a, oh, the power’s no good, turn the generator on. It’s
okay, if the humidity in the air is perfect and the sun’s shining, then we
won’t turn it on, it’s super over complicated and it’s running off of Windows
7.
JONES: Windows XP.
DOUGAN: Windows XP, right now, they went
in and saved the program, recently, so we still have the program to even run it
off to the side, if it failed, but some of what they have in mind is that if
they change the switch gear, so that it’s just a simple switch; okay? And
they’re going to put some…
JONES: Arc Flash mitigation
DOUGAN: So, Arc Flash mitigation, some
relays ahead of it, so that you don’t have that Arc Flash potential in the
building, anymore; okay? That’s kind of step number one, before I go fight with
NYSEG, too much, because that piece of it, kind of wasn’t NYSEG’s, other than
somebody thought the power was good.
JONES: Can I add to that a little bit,
Jim?
DOUGAN: Yeah, by all means.
JONES: So, normally, the best way to put
this is, 80% of the problem lays with the building and 20% lays with the
utility. In case that 80% does lay, primary with the switch and our load in the
building and how it reacts with the utility’s power being supplied. So, the
best way to go after NYSEG, is we clean up our house first, it’s going to be a
lot easier for us to go back to NYSEG, and say, here’s what we spent money on
doing. Once we do that, we can go back to them with this $90,000.00. What this
study is going to show is okay, here is the methodology that we used to come up
with three solutions to NYSEG that we present to them of options on how to
solve the problem and we come up with those options, but we can’t go after them
until we have done our own in-house clean up, because they’re going to throw it
back in our faces, constantly.
WOOD: Thank you
DELORIA: Yeah, I can speak to the Arc
Flash. My father was employed with this skeleton crew, but in the late 50s, 60s
he experienced an Arc Flash and spent 6 weeks treating 2nd degree
burns on his hand and chest. So, I mean he did survive it, but it was one of
those things that’s going to knock you on your butt and you know, certainly,
you’ve explained it enough. I am just saying it’s real, you know, I was too
young to experience is pain, but I’m sure he had it. So, I just wanted to throw
that out.
THURSTON: Jim, what are you hoping, you
know, I understand the whole process of getting all this and then going to
NYSEG, what is the problem with NYSEG and are they really going to do anything
about it?
DOUGAN: Okay, can I put that question on
hold for just a second, if we have time, once Todd, gets through this, through
our initial request, Nate, has prepared something, that I think Todd, al so has
on the computer that gets into a lot more of the technical stuff; okay? I don’t
speak the language very well.
THURSTON: Okay
DOUGAN: I’m still learning as these guys
are describing it to me, so that I can breaking it down into layman’s terms,
but again, I was afraid that we would get a little too focused on NYSEG in this
meeting. Yes, NYSEG, is a problem, but let’s take care of our own issues first,
if we can. You can ask these guys, I just told them, everybody’s going to say,
NYSEG, NYSEG, NYSEG, no, some of it’s our own issues from the way this was
originally designed and if we can stay a little bit focused on that and then, yes,
I would want to both barrels, go after NYSEG, but I am going to make sure that
I have a whole bunch of bullets when I do. So, can we get, sorry.
THURSTON: That’s okay, I just wanted to
clarify. In my experience, we had National Grid and Todd, I know you helped us
when they blew our solar panels apart and we know that it was National Grid,
but somehow the Town ended up paying for it and it wasn’t National Grid, even
though it was a power surge. So, I guess I just wanted to make sure that, you
know, spinning our wheels, trying to go after something we can’t win.
DOUGAN: Nope, that’s why I want the
bullets, that’s why I want the data and I believe these couple of guys and
with, we don’t have all the horse power to do it ourselves; okay? Nate, coming
in with some of his detailed knowledge, alongside Todd, alongside Hugh, is what
is making us finally see this problem. We’re doing what we call, design
management, better, where if we do bring in an outside consultant, it’s because
they’re looking for, we’re directly them. They’re not trying to give us a
project that we don’t want and so, but that means all of us are learning, even
as we go. So, that’s where the capital reserve, you guys all set up, knowing
that some of this is here and not just putting a big piece in the budget, if we
just take off little pieces at a time, so sorry.
STANLEY: So, I am sure you’re going to
touch on this, but before I forget, is there a way to clean the power up and
utilize something like the heat exchanger, how we made that graph from going so
much to be able to even that out, so that our system we have, more readily
operates off of that?
DOUGAN: When our generator works, the
power is cleaner from our generator than it is from the system, right now. Not
that we want to be on a generator all the time, but it honestly is cleaner than
what we’re getting.
HODGSON: As we investigate that
particular problem, I will say that there’s probably, you will probably find,
even for yourself, at some of your facilities, there may be some filters or
other things as the power get worse. I just want to make that connection for
those that have water or wastewater facilities.
Okay, I want to jump into actually what
we’re asking for, because we’re going to go back and think heat systems
thoughts for just a second. This is what we had kind of planned. We had
completed projects, I am just highlighting them. In 2023, we spend $43,000.00
replacing an exchanger and we’re not going back and doing that. We did the
Thermal Mass Project at $83,000.00, that’s completed and in 2024 we completed
an evaluation of some of the heating system components, which helped us with
our Thermal Mass Project and with some other issues in the building, as well.
Action Item #1; the Heating System.
We’re looking for Board authorization for what Jim, pulled out of this year’s
budget, in 2025, putting it toward our capital improvement of $285,000.00. That
is geared towards to the control system improvements for the boiler room,
updating the controls for the thermal mass project that we did, tooling up for
the rooftop unit projects, because at some point, those rooftops, we’ve had
some failure, we’ve gotten past that, but technically, they’re kind of past
their life expectancy and so we’re trying to get ahead of the planning work, so
that we’re not in emergency mode trying to replace another heat exchange in a
rooftop unit. So, that’s the purpose of that, the line item, the action item.
DOUGAN: Can I jump in there, Todd, just
for one second, just, so, again, I’ll bring you back to the beginning. We’re
trying to replace one rooftop unit, found that the controls are so proprietary,
that in order to do that, we’re going to have to basically redo the controls on
everything or just continue to be tied to this same vendor. So, if we tackle
controls, which need to done, then even if one of those rooftop units fails, I
can then just replace the rooftop unit. Not exactly where I want to be, but it
keeps the building operating. If I don’t tackle the controls, then I am still
in this really weird spot, where I’m starting to try and replace interior
components that have already missed their useful life or gone past their useful
life. So, but, the rooftop unit design is because there’s a lot of things that
should have been put in there for efficiency, right? Hugh, do you want to jump
in? T
That’s why we’re going to design, just
say, give a couple of examples of things that should be changed in the rooftop
units themselves, when they’re replaced.
HARWOOD: Yeah, a lot of it, I mean it
goes back to the actual structure of the building, I mean it’s a building that
was really meant to be put down at Texas. So, the exterior walls, a lot of
concrete, a brick I should say, not even concrete. So, the pods, every large
areas, there’s no energy recovery, so pretty much it’s a straight, it’s heating
the air, dumping it in and then too much air, it’s just exhausting it. So, like
what we’re trying to do, to be able to, especially those pods, which are more
than the really exterior kind of, they’re just sitting out in the winds, how
the building is actually setup, certain areas in those cells are extremely
cold. So, we’re trying to do an energy recovery so that we can actually get the
proper heat there and also save energy, actual efficiency with doing the energy recovery. There is some
problems with that, because it’s a jail, so it’s not like you got sheetrock
with some stud walls, it’s actually full concrete, so it’s secure. So, there’s
a little bit of issues with that, so a lot of it is addressing those items for
energy recovery.
DOUGAN: Right, so, if the control
system, the controls upgrades are done, even if I have to replace one in a
hurry to match the way it fits right now, I can’t, but if I don’t do the
controls first and I just start to design, then so, that’s the reason we’re
going in that, wanting to go in that direction.
HODGSON: So, those are the two items
that we’re looking to have the money allocated for. We, so Jim and coming to him
with some of the electrical issues, okay, what are we not doing?
DOUGAN: Yeah, that’s what I keep asking
them.
HODGSON: So, you’ll see the electrical
systems at the bottom, we’re looking for $15,000.00 to begin the process of
replacing the switch gear. That’s a top
priority for us, because that creates such as issue. That’s probably
$750,000.00 project, potentially, I don’t know. There’s a, when you’re talking
about wires that are about this big in diameter, 9 of them per phase, that’s a
lot of copper.
DOUGAN: 350 feet, each.
HODGSON: Yeah, somewhere around there.
DOUGAN: Just in copper.
HODGSON: So, it’s a bit to kind of
figure out. So, we’re looking, at least, for $15,000.00 to begin that process
to get the switch figured out.
The second piece is, and I’m not sure
that it even fits within these two dollar figures, at all, but that investigation, you know, with the
grid. In other for us to approach NYSEG, you have to have your ducks in a row, pretty good. Me
just coming to them and say, here look at the par quality issue that I have, if
you guys have had any experience with having NYSEG come out and monitor the
power at your facility, because you have a problem, they take those black box,
they hook it, they don’t ever give you any of the data and they say, it’s fine
and that that’s usually the response you get, it’s fine. We have an instrument
that is very sophisticated and can catch these problems. We now know what they
wouldn’t ever tell us, but it takes a little bit more to push back on NYSEG
than just, you know, me coming to them with that data. Eventually we will need
to be looking at that. So, those are our requests, it’s mainly action item #1
and #2, but you know, if we can save some money in some areas, we would like to
at least get item #1, under the electrical evaluation competed and we can
continue to discuss the power quality and investigations and we would have to
deal with the power company at a later date.
MCNALLY: Are these coming to Full Board,
right now, Mike?
DOUGAN: No
MASCARENAS: No, they’re going to bring
them to committee.
DOUGAN: I’m going to bring them to DPW.
MCNALLY: Great, anything else?
STANLEY: A couple of things, I know we
want to wait to approach NYSEG, until we really have all the information to
have, but it was very eye opening when Jim and I went to the NYSEG conference
up in Plattsburgh. If it requires them to do an upgrades or changes to a
transfer station, those parts are years out. So, I mean the sooner, obviously,
approach them the better.
My second question, is, do you, Jim, my
entire time on the Board, you’ve brought
this up and we’ve been talking about the controls and the heating system and
there’s been a ticking clock. In the last 3-4 years, since you brought this up,
are we gaining or falling more behind on the timeline to be able to catch this
stuff?
DOUGAN: No, I think we’re gaining. You
know, we’ve, some of what we’ve brought you is like the scientific method and
think there’s a hypothesis and we didn’t know how extensive the problem was. We
knew there was controls issues and we knew that our, you know, our rooftops
units, the thing was built in 2007, roughly, is when it came online, so we’re
about 20 years in from when those rooftop units started to be delivered, which
is why, you know, we said that they’re design life, a 20-year lifespan, is
where we’re at the end of it, but we’re, until we really looked into a few
years, we didn’t realize that the controls we’re going to be an issue. So, now
we do. Now we have a vendor on, we’ve already moved some of the controls along,
we know the logic it’s going to take and now it’s just bringing that controls
contractor in, they’re on a term contract, so it’s not putting out a bid every
time, figuring out controls can be very difficult, especially when you have to
keep part of the system operating and you want to make another system go in a direction
that you’re looking for. I still have to
support that building, so that the Sheriff and Emergency Services and now
Probation can still provide the services they’re supposed to do. So, I think
we’re definitely closer there. I would say the electrical system is a hiccup
that, not a hiccup, but step back in saying we’ll get some of the money there a
little bit sooner. But, I’m pretty confident that the boiler room, the controls
work is almost, almost a logic diagram, already. So, we know how to control
that with non-proprietary equipment and pull it right off of the M-Core system,
but the rooftop units, the controls. I don’t think it’s going to be hard, but
it will be one big jump, once we have it fully designed. So, I think we’re
there.
STANLEY: Because I was really excited,
three years ago, it sounded like we were being very pro-active on this whole
thing, which you guys have been incredible. Now, as we’re getting towards the
end of the lift on these things, like I don’t want to be reactionary, so I want
to make sure this Board is giving you every tool that you need to be able to
accomplish what we were trying to do three years ago.
DOUGAN: You guys, we keep asking and you
keep giving us the tools to diagnosis. I feel I have, you guys have allowed me
to have some of the staff here, who can diagnosis these things, so we aren’t
jut relying consultants trying to build their own projects. So, you keep doing
do that and I very much recognize it and appreciate it. I’ve asked for a lot
and you guys have given us the tools to get it.
HARWOOD: We’ve been put in the place to
really be able to identify and start targeting.
DOUGAN: I wish we have had through all
of this in 2007, when it first came online and every time we talk about a new
building, I mean, even if I go back to the Ag and Youth Building, why are we
doing simple radiant heat and why are we doing mini-splits? Because we don’t,
we’re trying to keep these complicated things out of it, because we know we’re
going to have to maintain that forever and I’m hoping to be able to maintain it
with our own people, long term.
STANLEY: I mean it was so much easier
when the old jail was built, when you have candles and a hand pump. The more
complicated something is, the more expensive it is to fix it.
MASCARENAS: I will just add that the
finances were also an issue, in terms of getting some of things accomplished.
When Todd, came here and did that first presentation, if I’m wrong, tell me,
holy crap, really Todd? But, $4.5 million, I think it was that very first day,
just on known problems, that didn’t include the electrical at that time. So, if
you react to that presentation at the Board and you all of sudden budget that,
wow. Your levy jumps by $4.5 million and maybe you get it done that year and
maybe you don’t. So, then you start carrying it in subsequent years and it’s
hard to budget that way, which is why we set up the capital account. It makes
way more sense to do that and now we have the ability to react, as needed to
some of these requests without putting an annual total on the taxpayers.
STANLEY: Well, just think if none of
this was thought out ahead of time, and it failed. The cost that it would have
been to…
MASCARENAS: Yeah, an emergency type
reaction on that, yeah.
MONTY: A little history on that, look up
back to 2005, when this whole project was started and how it was handled back
then and you’ll recognize the problem that we have today. I know I got water
forever from Essex County.
MCNALLY: Alright, anything else?
DOUGAN: No, I think we’ll save that
other detail, if you guys want detail of the electrical engineering stuff that
these guys have done.
DELORIA: I would like to see it at
another meeting.
DOUGAN: I would like to have them
present it to you, because it’s interesting, even though it’s over my head.
MCNALLY: Anything else?
MONTY: This has been great information,
it really has.
MCNALLY: Yup, excellent presentation. It
is something that we can address, now that we know what the problem is.
MASCARENAS: Okay, perfect.
MCNALLY: We are adjourned.
AS
THERE WAS NO FURTHER BUSINESS TO COME BEFORE THIS BUILDING AND FACILITIES TASK
FORCE, IT WAS ADJOURNED AT 9:51 AM
Respectively Submitted,
Dina Garvey, Deputy Clerk
Board of Supervisors